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Topic: Difference between cast and forged steel frames? (Read 1,154 times)

Agent Wesker
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Difference between cast and forged steel frames?
« Thread Started on Aug 23, 2011, 12:57pm »

Anu po pinagkaiba nito sa performance,reliability,specs,at producing?Anu po pinagkaiba nito sa performance,reliability,specs,at production of each frame?

« Last Edit: Aug 23, 2011, 12:59pm by Agent Wesker »

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wdl
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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #1 on Aug 23, 2011, 5:38pm »

Casting is the process where metal is heated until molten. While in the molten or liquid state it is poured into a mold or vessel to create a desired shape.

Forging is the application of thermal and mechanical energy to steel billets or ingots to cause the material to change shape while in a solid state.

some readings you may want to take a look at;
http://www.esi-group.com/products/casting/Etips/e-tips/eTip16.pdf

willie

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #2 on Aug 23, 2011, 7:46pm »

I had this same question some months back when i was eyeing on a Chinese/ Brazilian made 1911 with a forged frame.. After realizing that all were assembled similarly and after seeing some bad reviews on the internet, I checked out the quality and reliability of Armscor, and the fact that they were cast didn't bother me anymore. Heck, Para Ordnance (a popular brand, not your very high end brand) uses cast frame too... I decided to get myself a Rock Island Armory FS-GI .45...

IMHO, I think both (cast and forged) are just as equal as the other.. Some folks dig forged steel since they believe its more solid and also due to the fact that the original 1911s made in the old days WWII were made from steel/forged... This does not really mean that forged metal is far more superior than cast-made firearms..

Overall I think WHAT REALLY MATTERS most on FIREARMS aside from their material(forged v cast) is:
- How they are made/assembled (reliability issues)
- What type of ammo you use on your firearm
- Maintenance (proper lubrication and condition/replacement of springs)

Companies that use forged frames: Springfield Armory, Colt, Kimber, Norinco
Cast Frames: Para Ordnance, Armscor, Rock Island Armory, Metro Arms, SAM,

All the slides are made with forged metal/steel...

After having said that, I ask myself.. which is better: Metal or Plastic? (Cast vs. Polymer frame)???

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #3 on Aug 23, 2011, 10:12pm »

Aug 23, 2011, 7:46pm, manonglakas wrote:

"the proof of the pudding is in the eating".

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #4 on Aug 24, 2011, 8:40am »

In laymans term:

Cast - tinutunaw ang bakal
Forged - pinapanday ang bakal.

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #5 on Aug 24, 2011, 10:18am »

Old Browning Hi-Powers had forged frames. The new Hi-Powers have cast frames. It is said that the cast frames are more sturdier than the forged ones.

WWII 1911s had "soft" slides and frames. Due to cost cutting and the demand for firearms during the war, only critical parts were "hardened."

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #6 on Aug 24, 2011, 11:15am »

Thanks sir Willie for the info also to our bros who shared their knowledge. naliwanagan na ako kung ano difference.

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #7 on Aug 24, 2011, 11:15am »

my queries:

1. if the slides/frames are forged, does it mean the other metal/steel parts of the fa are forged too?.
2. if the slides/frames are cast, does it mean the other metal/steel parts of the fa are also cast too?

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #8 on Aug 24, 2011, 11:31am »

Aug 24, 2011, 11:15am, clg315 wrote:

It really depends on what the manufacturer uses for the pistol's internals. 1911 internal parts manufacturers that I would trust would be: Ed Brown and Cylinder and Slide. For barrels: Bar-Sto, Shuemann, Nowlin and Colt.

Ed Brown makes their parts in-house (no outside contracts).

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #9 on Aug 24, 2011, 6:02pm »

Aug 24, 2011, 11:15am, clg315 wrote:

In our case, majority of the components are IC, some small parts MIM.

willie

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #10 on Aug 24, 2011, 8:36pm »

Aug 24, 2011, 6:02pm, wdl wrote:

Aug 24, 2011, 11:15am, clg315 wrote:

In our case, majority of the components are IC, some small parts MIM.

willie

thanks bro. willie. alam ko ang IC. ang MIM kailangan search ko pa sa google. one means models international management. any other meaning related to fa production? ::)

« Last Edit: Aug 24, 2011, 8:43pm by clg315 »

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TisiphoneMegaera
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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #11 on Aug 24, 2011, 10:53pm »

Aug 24, 2011, 8:36pm, clg315 wrote:

Aug 24, 2011, 6:02pm, wdl wrote:

In our case, majority of the components are IC, some small parts MIM.

willie

thanks bro. willie. alam ko ang IC. ang MIM kailangan search ko pa sa google. one means models international management. any other meaning related to fa production? ::)

Sir ano iyung IC and MIM? Mukhang kailangan idagdag ito dun sa FA abbreviations thread.

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clg315
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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #12 on Aug 24, 2011, 11:00pm »

Aug 24, 2011, 10:53pm, TisiphoneMegaera wrote:

Aug 24, 2011, 8:36pm, clg315 wrote:

thanks bro. willie. alam ko ang IC. ang MIM kailangan search ko pa sa google. one means models international management. any other meaning related to fa production? ::)

Sir ano iyung IC and MIM? Mukhang kailangan idagdag ito dun sa FA abbreviations thread.

ang alam ko ang IC means investment casting. ang MIM ay hula ko metal injection molding. bukas ng hapon ay i-confirm ito ni bro. willie.

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #13 on Aug 25, 2011, 12:15am »

MIM - metal injection mold...

(khorekkk!.. kris aquino tone)

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TACTICALGUNNERdea
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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #14 on Aug 25, 2011, 12:47am »

It's really obvious why CAST?

Strength of forging:
- Good Mechanical properties
(yield strength, ductility,
toughness)
- Reliability (used for critical parts)
- No liquid metal treatment
Weakness of forging:
- Defects
- Laps
- Die unfill
- Die failure
- Piping
- Shape limited when undercuts or
cored sections are required
- Overall cost usually higher than
casting
- Multiple steps often required

Strength of casting:
- Large and complex parts
- High production rate
- Design flexibility
Weakness of casting:
- Defects
- Shrinkage porosity
- Metallic projections
- Cracks, hot tearing, cold
shuts
- Laps, oxides
- Misruns, insufficient
volume
- Inclusions
- Requires close process control
and inspections (porosity may
occur)

no wonder it's CAST!

« Last Edit: Aug 25, 2011, 12:55am by TACTICALGUNNERdea »

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #15 on Aug 25, 2011, 12:57am »

Forging
Forging is a manufacturing process
where metal is shaped by plastic
deformation under great pressure into
high strength parts.

Casting
The casting process consists of pouring
or injecting molten metal into a mold
containing a cavity with the desired
shape of the casting. Metal casting
processes can be classified either by the
type of mold or by the pressure used to
fill the mold with liquid metal

kayo? which side are you?

« Last Edit: Aug 25, 2011, 1:00am by TACTICALGUNNERdea »

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #16 on Aug 25, 2011, 7:26am »

Aug 25, 2011, 12:57am, TACTICALGUNNERdea wrote:

which sides? can we add other choice? kailangan malaman ko muna ang difference ng casting at investment casting. the latter is iyong ginagawa ng armscor. di ba?

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #17 on Aug 25, 2011, 10:05am »

Metal Casting Processes
Foundry Process
Process Pros / Cons
Green Sand Molding
The green sand process utilizes a mold made of compressed or compacted moist sand packed around a wood or metal pattern. A metal frame or flask is placed over the pattern to produce a cavity representing one half of the casting. The sand is compacted by either jolting or squeezing the mold.

The other half of the mold is produced in like manner and the two flasks are positioned together to form the complete mold. If the casting has hollow sections, cores consisting of hardened sand (baked or chemically hardened) are used.

High-Density Molding (High Squeeze Pressure / Impact) Large air cylinders, hydraulics, and innovative explosive methods have improved the sand compaction around the pattern, improving the standards of accuracy and finish which can be achieved with certain types of castings.

Advantages
Most ferrous / non-ferrous metals can be used.
Low Pattern & Material costs.
Almost no limit on size, shape or weight of part.
Adaptable to large or small quantities
Used best for light, bench molding for medium-sized castings or for use with production molding machines.
Disadvantages

Low design complexity.
Lower dimensional accuracy.
No-Bake Molding
Chemical binders (furan or urethane) are mixed with sand and placed in mold boxes surrounding the pattern halves. At room temperature, the molds become rigid with the help of catalysts. The pattern halves are removed and the mold is assembled with or without cores.

Advantages
Most ferrous / non-ferrous metals can be used.
Adaptable to large or small quantities
High strength mold
Better as-cast surfaces.
Improved dimensional repeatability
Less skill and labor required then in conventional sand molding.
Better dimensional control.
Disadvantages

Sand temperatures critical.
Patterns require additional maintenance.
Resin Shell Molding
Resin-bonded silica sand is placed onto a heated pattern, forming shell-like mold halves. Pattern halves are bonded together with or without cores.
Probably the earliest, most automated and most rapid of mold (and coremaking) processes was the heat-curing technique known as the shell process.

Ejector pins enable the mold to be released from the pattern and the entire cycle is completed in seconds depending upon the shell thickness desired. The two halves of the mold, suitably cored, are glued and clamped together prior to the pouring of the metal. Shell molds may be stored for long periods if desired. Because of pattern costs, this method is best suited to higher volume production.

Advantages

Adaptable to large or medium quantities
Most ferrous / non-ferrous metals can be used.
Rapid production rate.
Good dimensional casting detail and accuracy.
Shell molds are lightweight and may be stored almost indefinitely.
Disadvantages

Since the tooling requires heat to cure the mold, pattern costs and pattern wear can be higher.
Energy costs are higher.
Material costs are higher than those for green sand molding.
Permanent Mold
Permanent molds consist of mold cavities machined into metal die blocks and designed for repetitive use. Currently, molds are usually made of cast iron or steel, although graphite, copper and aluminum have been used.

Permanent mold castings can be produced from all of the metals including iron and copper alloys, but are usually light metals such as zinc-base, magnesium and aluminum.

Gravity Permanent Mold -The flow of metal into a permanent mold using gravity only is referred to as a gravity permanent mold. There are two techniques in use: static pouring, where metal is introduced into the top of the mold through downsprues similar to sand casting; and tilt pouring, where metal is poured into a basin while the mold is in a horizontal position and flows into the cavity as the mold is gradually tilted to a vertical position.

Normally, gravity molding is used because it is more accurate than shell molding. It is preferred almost exclusively to shell molding for light alloy components.

Low-Pressure Permanent Mold - Low-pressure permanent mold is a method of producing a casting by using a minimal amount of pressure (usually 5-15 lb/sq in.) to fill the die. It is a casting process that helps to further bridge the gap between sand and pressure diecasting.

Advantages
Superior mechanical properties.
Produces dense, uniform castings with high dimensional accuracy.
Excellent surface finish and grain structure.
The process lends itself very well to the use of expendable cores and makes possible the production of parts that are not suitable for the pressure diecasting process.
Repeated use of molds.
Rapid production rate with low scrap loss.
Disadvantages

Higher cost of tooling requires a higher volume of castings.
The process is generally limited to the production of somewhat small castings of simple exterior design, although complex castings such as aluminum engine blocks and heads are now commonplace.
Die Casting
This process is used for producing large volumes of zinc, aluminum and magnesium castings of intricate shapes. The essential feature of diecasting is the use of permanent metal dies into which the molten metal is injected under high pressure (normally 5000 psi or more).

The rate of production of diecasting depends largely on the complexity of design, the section thickness of the casting, and the properties of the cast metal. Great care must be taken with the design and gating of the mold to avoid high-pressure porosity to which this process is prone.

Advantages

Cost of castings is relatively low with high volumes.
High degree of design complexity and accuracy.
Excellent smooth surface finish.
Suitable for relatively low melting point metals (1600F/871C) like lead, zinc, aluminum, magnesium and some copper alloys.
High production rates.
Disadvantages

Limits on the size of castings - most suitable for small castings up to about 75 lb.
Equipment and die costs are high.
Investment Casting
(Lost Wax)
Investment Casting is the process of completely investing a three-dimensional pattern in all of its dimensions to produce a one-piece destructible mold into which molten metal will be poured. A refractory slurry flows around the wax pattern, providing excellent detail.

The wax patterns are assembled on a "tree" and invested with a ceramic slurry. The tree is then immersed into a fluidized bed of refractory particles to form the first layer of the ceramic shell. The mold is allowed to dry and the process repeated with coarser material until sufficient thickness has been built up to withstand the impact of hot metal.

When the slurry hardens, the wax pattern is melted out and recovered and the mold or ceramic shell is oven cured prior to casting.

Most materials can be cast by this process but the economics indicate that fairly high volume is necessary and the shape and complexity of the castings should be such that savings are made by eliminating machining.

Advantages

Excellent accuracy and flexibility of design.
Useful for casting alloys that are difficult to machine.
[b]Exceptionally fine finish.
Suitable for large or small quantities of parts.
Almost unlimited intricacy.
Suitable for most ferrous / non-ferrous metals.
No flash to be removed or parting line tolerances.
Disadvantages

Limitations on size of casting.
Higher casting costs make it important to take full advantage of the process to eliminate all machining operations.[/b]
Expandable Pattern Casting
(Lost Foam)
Also known as Expanded Polystyrene Molding or Full Mold Process, the EPC or Lost Foam process is an economical method for producing complex, close-tolerance castings using an expandable polystyrene pattern and unbonded sand.

The EPC process involves attaching expandable polystyrene patterns to an expandable polystyrene gating system and applying a refractory coating to the entire assembly. After the coating has dried, the foam pattern assembly is positioned on several inches of loose dry sand in a vented flask. Additional sand is then added while the flask is vibrated until the pattern assembly is completely embedded in sand.

A suitable downsprue is located above the gating system and sand is again added until it is level to the top of the sprue. Molten metal is poured into the sprue, vaporizing the foam polystyrene, perfectly reproducing the pattern. Gases formed from the vaporized pattern permeate through the coating on the pattern, the sand and finally through the flask vents.

In this process, a pattern refers to the expandable polystyrene or foamed polystyrene part that is vaporized by the molten metal. A pattern is required for each casting.

Advantages

No cores are required.
Reduction in capital investment and operating costs.
Closer tolerances and walls as thin as 0.120 in.
No binders or other additives are required for the sand, which is reusable.
Flasks for containing the mold assembly are inexpensive, and shakeout of the castings in unbonded sand is simplified and do not require the heavy shakeout machinery required for other sand casting methods.
Need for skilled labor is greatly reduced.
Casting cleaning is minimized since there are no parting lines or core fins.
Disadvantages

The pattern coating process is time-consuming, and pattern handling requires great care.
Good process control is required as a scrapped casting means replacement not only of the mold but the pattern as well.
Vacuum ("V") Process Molding
This adaptation of vacuum forming permits molds to be made out of free-flowing, dry, unbonded sand without using high-pressure squeezing, jolting, slinging or blowing as a means of compaction. The V-process is dimensionally consistent, economical, environmentally and ecologically acceptable, energy thrifty, versatile and clean.

The molding medium is clean, dry, unbonded silica sand, which is consolidated through application of a vacuum or negative pressure to the body of the sand. The patterns must be mounted on plates or boards and each board is perforated with vent holes connected to a vacuum chamber behind the board. A preheated sheet of highly flexible plastic material is draped over the pattern and board. When the vacuum is applied, the sheet clings closely to the pattern contours. Each part of the molding box is furnished with its own vacuum chamber connected to a series of hollow perforated flask bars. The pattern is stripped from the mold and the two halves assembled and cast with the vacuum on.

Advantages

Superb finishes.
Good dimensional accuracy.
No defects from gas holes.
All sizes and shapes of castings are possible
Most ferrous / non-ferrous metals can be used.
Disadvantages

The V-process requires plated pattern equipment.
Centrifugal Molding
The Centrifugal Casting process consists of a metal or graphite mold that is rotated in the horizonal or vertical plane during solidification of the casting. Centrifugal force shapes and feeds the molten metal into the designed crevices and details of the mold. The centrifugal force improves both homogeneity and accuracy of the casting.

This method is ideally suited to the casting of cylindrical shapes, but the outer shape may be modified with the use of special techniques.

Advantages

Rapid production rate.
Suitable for Ferrous / Non-ferrous parts.
Good soundness and cleanliness of castings.
Ability to produce extremely large cylindrical parts.
Disadvantages

Limitations on shape of castings. Normally restricted to the production of cylindrical geometric shapes.

« Last Edit: Aug 25, 2011, 10:10am by TACTICALGUNNERdea »

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Re: Difference between cast and forged steel frame
« Reply #18 on Aug 25, 2011, 10:14am »

Investment casting process

The investment casting process uses expendable patterns made of investment casting wax.
The wax patterns are commonly prepared by injection molding technology which involves injection of wax into a prefabricated die having the same geometry of the cavity as the desired cast part.
The wax patterns are then attached to a gating system (a set of channels through which a molten metal flows to the mold cavity).
The next stage is the shell building - the wax assembly is immersed into refractory ceramic slurry of hardening mixtures followed by drying. This operation is repeatedly carried out resulting in formation of a solid ceramic shell of 1/4” -3/8” (6mm – 9mm) thick.
The next stage is dewax. At this stage the assembly is heated in an autoclave where the most of the wax is melted out. This operation is followed by burning out the residual wax in a furnace.
The mold is then preheated to 1830°F (1000°C). Now the mold is ready for filling with a molten metal.
Casting stage is conventional operation involving pouring a molten metal into the shell through the gating system.
After the metal has solidified and cooled to a desired temperature, the shell is broken and the castings are cut away from the gates and sprue.
The last stage is finishing carried out by sandblasting or machining.

Advantages and disadvantages of investment casting

Advantages:
Excellent surface finish.
Tight dimensional tolerances.
Complex and intricate shapes may be produced.
Capability to cast thin walls.
Wide variety of metals and alloys (ferrous and non-ferrous) may be cast.
Draft is not required in the molds design.
Low material waste.
Disadvantages:
Individual pattern is required for each casting.
Limited casting dimensions.
Relatively high cost (tooling cost, labor cost).

« Last Edit: Aug 25, 2011, 10:16am by TACTICALGUNNERdea »

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